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Sal's avatar

You’ve collapsed “not being the perfect anti-Zionist” into “Zionist,” as if political nuance is heresy.

Your indictment seems to rest on Mamdani’s statement that “Israel has the right to exist.” Stripped of context, yes, this phrase can signal ideological alignment with Zionism. But that’s only if we pretend language lives in a vacuum. Mamdani isn’t drafting the Likud charter—he’s just describing political reality. He also says Palestinians have a right to exist and a right to their own state - this contradicts Zionism.

You want a radical position, fine—but don’t mistake a sober recognition of geopolitical facts for ideological betrayal. The left doesn’t gain strength by selectively zooming in to one imperfect statement, stripping it away from context, and then drawing radical conclusions that contradict basically all the other things he has said but which is left out conveniently.

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raden's avatar

also don't forget that his identity is deeply weaponized by his political opponents. him saying that israel doesn't have the right to exist is essentially political suicide and also just very dangerous for him personally. besides, he has also made statements in the past that insinuates that israel does not have the right to exist.

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Avigail Abarbanel's avatar

Which is why he needs to qualify it and state the truth: that Israel does not have a right to exist as an exclusively Jewish state at the expense of the Palestinian people.

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Sal's avatar

Yes - true. And this is exactly what he has said on numerous occassions - literally those words. He has literally refused to endorse israel as a jewish state.

So should we now make a big point of one interview with an ultra-zionist in which Mamdani did not have the time to provide the full context and disclaimers for one of his answers?

Its as if we just ignore all his condemnations of israel as a jewish state because he missed one opportunity to articulate for the 100th time in full force his earlier condemnations.

I think this moral outrage is just pathetic.

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Truth Seeking Missile's avatar

Sal, source for the quote you ascribe to him, please.

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Sal's avatar

The impressive thing about Mamdani is that he is consistent in his condemnation of Israel as an apartheid. I can give you one example, but there are dozens.

How many people dared condemn Israeli apartheid on October 8 2023? Well, Mamdani had the balls for it.

“just and lasting peace can only begin by ending the occupation and dismantling apartheid.”

https://x.com/ZohranKMamdani/status/1711093032907321525

He has repeated this critisism of israel after that even more fearcefully and consistently. To me this doesnt sound like someone who thinks Israel should continue to exist in its current etnocratic state.

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Truth Seeking Missile's avatar

But Israel dies NOT have a right to exist. And this guy knows it but wants to quiet AIPAC and others like it.

By donning a political tiny hat and kissing the Wall, he became just another brick.

This was his chance to demonstrate his mastery of a very important rule of law in our world, once that makes the difference between a compassionate and just defense of a captive people in Palestine and a hellish fascist-scape run by America and Israel. You cannot have both Israel and justice, the two cannot coexist. One is a thieving occupier, the other a victim of theft and its mechanisms. This by the way is where Stein also faltered, by acquiescing to Israel's "right to exist".

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Sal's avatar

If your critique is that this one response wasn’t the strongest response, fine —we agree (and then for the argument’s sake i ignore my conviction that with this comment he does not mean that Israel in its current form has any right to exist).

But that’s a far cry from branding someone a Zionist.

Mamdani has a long and public record of anti-Zionist critique — he supports BDS, declines to support Israel as a Jewish State, and says that israel should have equal rights for all. These are core anti-Zionist views that he articulates in the Zionist capital of the world, where such positions carry real cost.

To erase all of that because of one imperfect sentence is where we disagree.

Nobody will pass the bar, including ourselves, if we put the bar of approval at perfection.

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Markus's avatar

Stein “faltered” because she was an absolute joke of a candidate. A grifter running as a spoiler candidate for a laughably inept third party — and third parties cannot win in the United States anyway, even if they are NOT inept (which the Green Party is)!

Also: nice unintended (I hope) usage of antisemitic neo-Nazi dogwhistles there with the “tiny hat and kissing the wall” shit…

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Sal's avatar

Markus, I havent really followed the Green Party. I only know thats the only party that condemned the genocide (although I’m not sure they called it a genocide). What makes the party such a scam in your view?

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Markus's avatar
5dEdited

They’re not in any way interested in actually building their party to the point at which they might possibly have a chance at challenging the two main parties.

They’re not really interested in local elections, but rather only in running for president every four years as a kind of “Hail Mary”…but only really to siphon up votes from the Democratic candidate so that the Republican candidate has a greater chance of winning (just like their financier Vladimir Putin wants).

Also: did you read about the ballots they put out for the Nevada primary? They’re so incompetent that they literally entered Jill Stein as a REFERENDUM QUESTION instead of as a candidate! As in: “Jill Stein — yes or no?”

This kind of incompetence actually goes beyond belief. It’s literally up there with submitting your candidacy in crayon on a bar napkin…

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Sal's avatar

Now I get your outrage. I wasnt aware of these details. Thx.

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CC's avatar

Literal every remotely noteworthy third party condemned the genocide, including the Libertarians who are bigger than the Greens, it’s only the Democrats and Republicans who haven’t and even then there are a few Democrats who have and idk whether Thomas Maddie has used the word genocide itself but he is at least one Republican who has condemned Israel’s actions

The Green Party does not wield even its very limited power to accomplish anything useful or work to set up real infrastructure to grow support or take seats in legislatures or whatever and instead just acts as a protest vote in presidential elections and occasional other ones who’ll get barely promoted

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Avigail Abarbanel's avatar

Certainly not as an exclusively Jewish state, which is the only way Israel perceives its existence. Anything else they perceive as the annihilation of all Jews! It’s nuts but this is Israel and politicians and many people either don’t know this, or pretend not to. Please read my article: ‘Lies, Lies & More Lies’.

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CC's avatar

I didn’t like the and we either, but also it really does not matter if the mayor of NYC believes a state had a right to exist, his position is such that he will be on the right side of any issue involving the matter which he actually has political power to do something meaningful to affect

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Avigail Abarbanel's avatar

I hope you’re right. At the same time I don’t blame anyone for being cautious or suspicious of what politicians say. We’ve been betrayed so many times. I hope Mamdani is honest. But as the anarchism quote/joke says: ‘No matter who you vote for, a politician always gets in’— suggesting politicians are their own unique life form. 😐

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Sal's avatar

Can you elaborate what part of the “system” that he should be dismantling as a mayor he is actually embracing? His opposition to capitalism is quite hardcore anti-establishment view in my opinion but im open for arguments proving the contrast met and realise I may have blind spots.

I would agree it would be politicking if he consistently would argue Israel in its current state has a right to exist - but thats not mamdani. He has consistently argued the opposite and the suggestion he is of view that Israel in its current state has a right to exist is false and based on 1 quote that has been stripped from all context.

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𓆝 𓆟 𓆞's avatar

Preach

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Philip Gomez's avatar

I like Mamdani, but what you call “political nuance” is what I would call “politicking”. I like a lot of what he says and what he stands for, but let’s be real: he is still part of the system, and isn’t looking to dismantle it. That puts him squarely to the right of a lot of us.

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Polly Wynn's avatar

100 percent

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Sarah Anne's avatar

He said he believes it has a right to exist as a state with equal rights. Zionism has Israel currently existing as an ethno-supremacist state. When pressed he offered his position, and did not cite belief that it has a right to exist as a solely Jewish state. So no, he isn't a zionist.

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Truth Seeking Missile's avatar

You are hallucinating on the drugs of propaganda. Israel was founded by European Jewish gangs headed by mobsters like Menachem Begin. It is a global crime syndicate, that is its mission.

In no imaginary world will Israel ever value non-Jewish diversity and political power or the right to exist of anyone but Jewish fascists. Where are you getting that pipe dream, who told you that?

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Sarah Anne's avatar

I simply cited that Israel is a zionist state and Mamdani said he would support it being a non-zionist state, to refute the notion put forth in this essay that he is a zionist.

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Sam's avatar

Thank you for your nuance.

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User's avatar
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Jun 29
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Sal's avatar

She didnt say what she believes. When did reading become so difficult, and judging someone so easy?

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jointheswamp's avatar

Fascism and empiralism are the global crime syndicate and have existed long before Zionism came along. Cut your anti semetic bs. Many Jewish people have been protesting the existence of Israel since its' beginning. Zionism is evil, not Judaism. White supremacy is the evil. The murder of innocents didn't begin in Palestine. Remember when America started murdering it's own indigenous people after they were initially helped? Just like the Palestinians were when they welcomed in Jewish refugees.

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Sera's avatar

I agree with what you’re saying, and I think it’s also important to note that the majority of Zionists are not Jewish. That’s demographically correct, and even more so when you consider the number of Orthodox Jews who don’t consider the Netanyahu gang to be even members of the tribe.

What they have is propaganda, money, and power.

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Sera's avatar

The entire premise of this piece assumes that political goals can be achieved by politicians. That’s a useless point of departure.

Political goals can only be achieved by the people. If Mamdani is able to bring any force to the will of those who believe what he claims to believe, then he will have done a service. That, to me is enough.

If you’re looking for a leader you’ve already lost.

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aliyyaa maya 🪷's avatar

“If you’re looking for a leader you’ve already lost” Wheww 🔥

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Sera's avatar

Okay, I give up. I don’t think I understand “Wheww”

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aliyyaa maya 🪷's avatar

I agree with you.

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things and nothings's avatar

leader worship among some circles is devastating.

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Indy Hermit's avatar

This is a juvenile take.

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𓆝 𓆟 𓆞's avatar

"radicals" like u are sooo odd cause what have you done for palestine or any other country of the global south as a white man bitching on substack.

rather than writing essay long bull-shit takes, go do something more valuable and impactful.

as a US or a citizen of every other western country, your taxes most likely fund israeli occupation of palestine. you refuse to lend grace to politicians who attempt to ease the situation. you're not even palestinian or a victim of the genocide. how dare you weaponize their genocide to discredit zohran?

this win for zohran is a win, nonetheless small, but telling when it comes to the palestinian question. more people are refusing to stick beside the dire apartheid, more people are voting for change, and more people care.

respectfully shut the fuck up.

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things and nothings's avatar

imagine if instead of dragging this new mayor, he used the election as a means of inspiration. there could be change, and we can actually see it and feel it this time, not from the mouths of terminally online complainers. imperfect, but maybe a step.

but, no. everything has to be PERFECT and exactly as Lenin prophesied

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Michael Schirtzer's avatar

feel free to google me

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Echo & Verse's avatar

I did and you weren’t even the 4th most relevant Michael Schirtzer that showed up.

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Michael Schirtzer's avatar

that sounds like an ask jeeves search

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Echo & Verse's avatar

I don’t fuck with the leftist purity bullshit but your comedy is pretty good.

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Michael Schirtzer's avatar

I’ll take it

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Aisenka's avatar

So what's your conclusion? We shouldn't vote for Mamdani and let some other bigot win? That's going to help Palestinians and Native Americans?

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JC Denton's avatar

These purity spirals are a big reason why the left never goes anywhere.

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Michael Schirtzer's avatar

is zohran not a leftist or does the left never go anywhere

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Nylah Iqbal Muhammad's avatar

This article is poorly researched and poorly written. There’s plenty to critique about Mamdani’s answer but there’s also a lack of self-awareness here on the author’s part. It just kind of reeks of someone saying something blatantly untrue (Mamdani is not a Zionist) to get subscribers, without feeling a responsibility to think through their arguments rather than just get clicks.

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Michael Schirtzer's avatar

saying israel has a right to exist is a zionist statement even if you say it has a right to exist with equal rights that's normalization

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Nylah Iqbal Muhammad's avatar

I don’t need you to lecture me on normalization. I don’t need to hear your opinions about anything. Besides, you got what you wanted. Engagement. Good for you.

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Michael Schirtzer's avatar

ok sounds good

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Markus's avatar

An Israel with equal rights is definitionally no longer Israel. So tell me, in what way is that Zionist? You literally are not a Zionist if you support equal rights in Palestine!

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Andrea Stein Goldsworthy's avatar

Thanks Mikey. Those giving you shit on this don’t seem to understand that Israel having a right to exist means Zionism will still exist - a Christian/atheist ideology that was imposed on traumatized Jews after the Holocaust to “make them feel safe” when all that has happened is death and destruction. If Mamdani wins, he may do some good things for NEW YORK but nothing will change for the people of Palestine. He doesn’t have that power. And AGAIN - Dems and the MAGA GOP are a uni-party who are fine with keeping this country going down the toilet as well. Palestine must be restored as it was - where all religions lived together pre-1947.

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things and nothings's avatar

that’s the thing, it’s New York - he’s not president, he’s not in Congress… yet another ideological purity test rejecting potential progress, be it reformist or revolutionary

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terps's avatar

before you say it was imposed on Jews what ethnicity was theodore herzl

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Andrea Stein Goldsworthy's avatar

Zionism obviously is based on Christian evangelical weirdos and atheist, but the idea was pushed onto Jews after the holocaust when they were traumatized and wanted a safe place. They didn’t ask where it was or if anybody lived there, they just went.

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Carly @ Boobs Betrayed's avatar

Ugh… 😭😭 I wanted to believe Mamdani’s win was a move in the right direction as Americans will barely budge on their irrational belief that Israel is our “ally” and that we must “protect the Jewish state by any means necessary.” But your argument is solid and I can't disagree with you…

It’s wild bc I haven't taken DSA seriously in many years, but here I was cheering Mamdani on - I guess out of my own desperation to cling onto ANYTHING/ANYONE bold enough to demand change, but you're right. Nothing will actually change if we continue on with these charades. Thank you for this reminder. 🖤

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Stan Goff's avatar

infantile leftism

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Max Asher Miller's avatar

Truly. A toddler throwing a fit because there aren't sprinkles on his ice cream sundae.

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Jasper Nathaniel's avatar

Shoddy accelerationist take, awkwardly jammed into the topic of the day and wrapped in clickbait. Bravo.

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Vincent Pagliaccio's avatar

Dividing the world into strictly zionist and anti-zionist is extremely silly and counter productive. Zohran clearly doesn't have any respect for Israel, as a brown person who's also Muslim he has much less leeway when it comes to talk about this than a white person or a Jewish person who is anti-zionist.

What Zohran is outlining is a one state solution and if you expect him to explain all the nuances of his opinion in a sentence or two during interviews and debates you aren't being serious.

Using zionist as a pejorative is great but throwing it at people who are literally allies is silly. Taking all context out of your analysis and judging this based on one quote as reflective of his whole world view is unserious. He's also been very harsh talking about Modi for example who he's able to attack far more freely being Indian and since it's not remotely a political topic right now. As a Muslim politician he just can't ruthlessly attack Zionism the way we want, that's just how it is, if you don't like 'reformism' or think electoral politics is useless then don't bother talking about it. This is the best politician on this issue besides maybe Ilhan Omar and he will be mayor of a 9M person city, this would be immensely helpful to the movement. Do you expect him to make himself unelectable by outlining the perfectly correct radical position?

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American Escapee's avatar

Mamdani’s rise, like others before him, offers potential material gains—but mainly keeps people invested in a violent settler empire. Seems like even “outsiders” make concessions and redirect revolution back into the system. But since the alternatives are slow, cruel, and corrupt—the excitement is understandable.

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Lucas RedBeard's avatar

This paragraph sums everything up for me cause while I hear what folks are saying in terms of Zohran being a positive for NY if he wins as mayor, we are still just a bigger version of Israel attempting to build settler socialism on stolen land.

I too want nothing to do with higher wages when they come at the expense of the majority of the worlds people. 💯🎯

"these petty bourgeoisie “victories” come at the expense of indigenous people on Turtle Island, people in the Congo, Sudan, Palestine and Latin America. They serve to benefit a group of people for whom the standard of living is already among the highest in the world. I don’t want to get paid more so I can watch the live-streamed genocides on a slightly better phone, I’d like to stop the genocides."

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Lucas RedBeard's avatar

Also I'm lolling at the tired "perfectionism" refrain. We aren't seeking perfect candidates to steer the wheel of a genocidal empire. We're seeking to dismantle the empire. Zohran is emblematic of the masses desire for socialist policy, but he is also a representative of a genocidal settler colony turned world-terrorist empire. The contradiction is what we as leftists deal with. It's not about perfection, it's about looking at the reality of things and acting with that in mind.

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Priya's avatar

Francesca Albanese: but Israel DOES exist. That is not the question we need to be asking. Why, if as a member state of the UN, does it not uphold the same standards expected of sovereign states?

To be honest, let's focus on progress, please NO to the cogs stuck in the mud mentality.

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